Who are the dumplings?
Dana Gray, Mary Lee, Navaz Mistry, Nico Sabourin, and Matt Fullbrook
TRANSCRIPT:
Matt
I have this amazing group of friends. We call ourselves the Dumpling Gang or Dumpling Days or some other variation on the dumpling theme. There are five of us, including me, Dana Gray, Mary Lee, Navaz Mistry, and Nico Sabourin. Although sometimes we have a few guests join us. Back in September, during one of our regular hangs where we eat, drink and shoot the shit. I asked if I could record us having a conversation about our jobs. A few weeks later, I interviewed Andrew Escobar for Sound-Up Governance and he said this:
Andrew Escobar
Governance is something that happens now. You're you're engaged in it, whether you know it or not. And that was the missing piece for me is that disconnect from that disconnect that you're actually a part of governance today, you're not on that board...you're not serving on that board, but you are very much a part of the governance of your organization.
Matt
It made me think back to the conversation with the Dumpling Gang. And, well, here we are: the first installment of the Dumpling Gang show on Ground-Up Governance. First, let's let everyone introduce themselves.
Dana
Hi, I'm Dana. I work in fundraising. I do prospect research. And one interesting thing about me is that I make a lot of my own clothes.
Mary
This is the voice of Mary Lee. I am a program lead at Shopify. And one current activity that I'm very into is taste testing, different flavors of chips. I love chips. And so getting to try unique flavors or something new is always fun, but I always still have my go-tos that I always go back to when I'm really craving it.
Navaz
My name is Navaz. I am the director of a fundraising team at a hospital foundation. The thing that's always grabbed my attention and driven me is understanding people. Understanding how individuals think, what they think about themselves, how that then influences how they interact with others.
Nico
Hi, I'm Nicolas Sabourin. I'm in institutional planning at the Universite de L'Ontario Francais. One thing about me is I'm trying to play golf at my best level.
Matt
And I'm Matt Fullbrook. Currently sort of employed and I really, really like snakes and spiders and other cool stuff like that. So full disclosure: Dana is my better half of nearly 16 years. We met through music, Mary and Nico recently got married and are adorable. Navaz, Mary and I all met through various former positions at the Rotman School of Management at the University of Toronto. I've linked to everyone's LinkedIn profiles in the show notes in case you want to know more. I'm realizing that the Dumplings are perfect examples of the people Andrew was talking about. Young, high-potential people in mature careers who may or may not think of themselves as having a role in corporate governance. During our impromptu recording, I asked the Dumplings to imagine their organizations as a sandwich and describe which layer of the sandwich they think they represent. Here's what they said with Navaz kicking us off.
Navaz
What's interesting about a sandwich analogy is what's the top and what's the bottom? Because you flip them... anyway, it doesn't matter. I would say, I'm sort of above middle, not the top.
Matt
So you're like a tomato on top of like the sandwich meat or whatever.
Navaz
Yeah, yeah.
Matt
Okay, Dana.
Dana
Yeah, it's hard for me to because like, I don't have anyone who reports to me. I'm I'm just like a worker bee. But I'm not like an intern or something. So I'm pretty bottom. But I'm not like, completely disposable.
Matt
Right. So is there like a sandwich ingredient that's close to the bottom but in touch with the top?
Dana
I'm the mayonnaise on top of the bread...the bottom bread
Navaz
I know your I know your role... I think you're more critical than a condiment!
Dana
Oh thank you!
Matt
What's a sandwich without condiments, really?
Dana
Listen, mayonnaise is delicious.
Navaz
Yeah, I agree! Anyway,
Matt
Okay, but yeah, so like your your maybe you're mayonnaise at the bottom that sometimes has interaction with mayonnaise at the top.
Mary
I'm never sure of those two mayonnaises...
Dana
It's a dodgy condiment!
Matt
Okay, so double mayonnaise...you're not into that? Uhhh, Mary?
Mary
Yeah. I think I'm bottom of the bread. Like I'm the bottom layer of the bread.
Matt
Okay, like on the bottom? The part touching the plate?
Mary
Yeah, yeah.
Matt
Okay. So tell us more.
Mary
Because the size of where I'm at, and the work that I'm involved in, I would say that's how I see myself. However, still necessary in order to call it a sandwich.
Matt
Okay,
Mary
Maybe that's too important.
Matt
Nico?
Mary
They don't eat sandwiches (referring to French people)
Nico
Yeah, I'm the whole sandwich.
Matt
You're the whole sandwich? Okay,
Nico
Because I'm working alone on my own department, I have no one to report, no one to work with directly, except everyone. So I'm pretty... pretty the bottom and the middle, you know?
Mary
Are you the protein? Is the protein?
Nico
I'm the toast.
Mary
You're the toast... BOTH the toasts?
Nico
I think he's the pickle on the side.
Dana
What is it a croque madame where you like melt it, andd then he put ham on top, or an egg on top?
Nico
And my boss is the egg. Yeah. Yeah, it's a complicated to describe.
Matt
Right.
Mary
But that's also perception. That's how you're perceiving, hence the environment and people because it's how you're perceiving 1. your organization 2. your importance in the organization 3.
Dana
And as he said before, like, how does your organization value its people? Yeah, right. Like the context of how your organization operates will affect how you see yourself and how other people value you.
Matt
I had also been thinking a lot about power and authority given Ground-Up Governance was just about to launch. I asked the Dumplings how they think power changes them: the way they feel, the way they behave, the way they perform. It's a weird question to ask a bunch of vaguely drunk friends, but they were game.
Navaz
Power is the way we relate to people and the way people relate to us. And so I think if you say that, it has a dramatic effect, or impact on all of the things: our sense of self, our ability to feel a sense of control over our worlds, I mean, those two things are constantly at play. Who we think we are, and how effective we think we are, in a particular environment influences a huge, huge influences how we show up in a significant way. So I would say, broadly, whether we hold power, or we don't hold power, informal or formal, has a big impact on us psychologically has a big impact on how we interact with others, positively or negatively I mean, not feeling like you can effectively influence an outcome hugely diminishes your sense of control, it hugely diminishes, to the extent that you feel like you want to connect it to your sense of identity. If you think about the workplace, lots of us identify as being really good people if we feel like we're really good in our jobs. And so I think you start to take away or you erode that sense of control or power in your workplace. That's going to affect you outside as well. And the extent to which you can decouple your sense of identity with your sense of success in a particular environment will always serve you well. But it's silly to think that those don't come together.
Matt
How does it change you?
Dana
For me, it's all about motivation. If I if I'm showing up at a job and like, and I can do my work, but it doesn't have any other effects within the organization or outside. Like, it's just so demotivating. I'm I think I'm pretty effective at decoupling, like my sense of self from work, largely because I enjoy my work. But there's also that question of motivation when I show up every day, and if I don't feel like I'm getting any traction, it's really demotivating.
Navaz
Mm hmm! And that traction in your context, but in lots of people's contexts is you do your thing, and your thing then has a connection to something else somebody else does. And that connection, what your thing does, and the impact it has on what somebody else does. Can be influence, back to authority or influence.
Mary
Yeah, I'm much more aligned on the front of motivation. I don't... That's why I like the word "power" doesn't really resonate with me when I think about the workplace. Because it's more about my personal motivation of what I'm looking to. Like what yeah, what gets me up in the morning to go to work is more important to me, I guess.
Matt
Yeah, I think I agree. And I also think, if I didn't have power, meaning I didn't like if I had no control over the other people's access to things that they want to meaning, the only reason why they'd ever do anything that was aligned with what I want is just because they're charitable... I'd find it really hard to work. I'd find it really hard to get out of bed in the morning and go... because I would feel like "how am I ever going to get other people aligned with where I'm going?"
Dana
So for you it's about mutual benefit?
Matt
Well...yeah, there's also a selfish part to it. I mean, for sure.
Mary
I've never thought about that. In my work. I never thought about getting what I want, because I have power.
Matt
Yeah, I think that power is definitely something that you can have without caring about it. But it's also something that even if you don't care about it, at least for me, I think I can it can give me a sense of sort of hubris or whatever, right where like...
Mary
But it doesn't mean other people don't see it, right. Like to your point. I know, like, that's the same as like, as, I guess that when you say it that way. I'm like, oh yeah, that wouldn't bother me waking up and going to work and be like, "oh, people actually enjoy working with me hence why I'm like, they say yes to some of the things that I'm working on and want to support it." But I don't see it as a way of like, Oh, if people said no to me that that wouldn't get or they only said yes. Because they're being terrible. I'm like, That's okay.
Matt
It's just harder
Mary
It doesn't hit as hard for me.
Matt
It's just harder when you're relying or hoping. And you can't control it.
Mary
Yes, I can see that. Yes.
Navaz
There's a huge utility to power
Matt
Totally! Utility in the in the like, it can be used, or utility in that, like, the economic sense? Like it makes you happy.
Mary
But that's why organizations are set up that way, though.
Navaz
I was thinking of the former. I mean, in order to get things done.
Mary
So but isn't that why titles exist? That's the difference between authority and power.
Matt
There's a lot of people with big titles who can't get anyone to do anything.
Nico
But power is not something that other people give you.
Matt
Okay?
Nico
Because the only power that you have, it's like, your own things that you do. Technically. So people who feel powerful, it's like, who gives them this power?
Matt
Right?
Mary
That would be influence?
Matt
Well, it's yeah, so this is maybe the different another illustration of the important difference between authority and power. It's like I could be, I could be a CEO in an organization, I could give you a title. But I can't give you power. Right? I can try, I can try to enable you to have influence and the best leaders do, right? The best leaders, build communities for the people around them and, and give them tools and give them access to people and development and so on that hopefully those people can use to influence other people
Nico
So your power, when you influence and you have an impact on other people... on the community. So here's like your motivation, actually.
Matt
Cool, right? These are real people in real jobs that affect real change for other real people. And they're only just barely aware of how important they are. That's pretty normal, I guess. But I always think of my friends as being like the most impressive people in the world. So it's a bit strange to realize they don't fully grasp their power while I'm out here, just, you know, putting whatever random stuff I feel like out into the world, assuming people are gonna find me brilliant. Anyway, because they're super generous. The Dumplings also sent me Voice Memos telling me the roles they feel they have in their organizations' governance. So like, what role does a tomato or mayonnaise or the bottom of the bread play in the governance of the sandwich? I also asked them to give me a sense of what they think corporate governance is in the first place. First, let's hear from Mary, the bottom of the bread in a big listed company.
Mary
My role is within the talent development and early talent sphere. And so that is why I would say it is far from the impacting governance, because there's no direct impact. However, why I also see it as important is because one of the pillars of what we're constantly working towards is to ensure that there is a diverse representation amongst our early talent participants. Because I think that when you are looking at training early talent unless you give that opportunity to a diverse audience of background, of education, of race, of gender, we won't be able to get these folks into the boardroom, if we're not already training them, and shaping them into leaders of the future. I wouldn't say that I've been directly impactful towards governance in the in the hands-on way, but tangentially have an impact, because yeah, I truly believe in just being able to use education as a means to help individuals grow personally and professionally. Being able to change the way they think, change the way... challenge the way they think about how things quote unquote, should be done or are done is what I truly enjoy doing. Like watching folks essentially, expand their minds and their mentality and really change around that. I actually don't often know, what folks are doing in a boardroom setting. I know that they are likely, you know, guiding a company in a direction and making decisions for a company. However, you know, it's it's still a mystery to me of just mostly white guys in a boardroom behind a closed door. And, and who knows what they're talking about. I'm sure there's meeting minutes, but who reads those??
Matt
And here's Nico, he explains a little bit more also about the fact that he plays multiple sandwich roles.
Nico
In my role, I have some impact on my organization governance. It's more, I would say it's more about because I'm part of the council of governance, I can see the end and the decision, I'm part of the decision. But I'm also alone in my in my job in my area. So it's like pretty connected how I can influence on what I'm doing, what I'm what I give to my boss, for example. It's why I'm... in the sandwich, I'm in the bottom and then in the middle.
Matt
And Dana, who's the mayonnaise, or maybe double mayonnaise or something?
Dana
Yeah, I think I'm pretty low in the organization. Not because I'm not skilled, or because they don't contribute. But because I, what most of what I do is I provide information. And then what people do with that information, I have no control over. So I can contribute all the information in the world, I can provide a lot of knowledge to people, but no one's accountable to me. So the information I provide only gets acted on if the leadership, like from the very top of the organization, is really vocal about making it a priority. Otherwise, people are busy with their own stuff. So a lot of the information that I provide, sort of spontaneously and of my own initiative, doesn't get acted upon. My role or impact on my organization's governance, again, really depends on how much weight the leadership wants to give the information that I provide. So I have worked under leaders who do come to me for advice, for example, on who might be a good fit for the board. Especially trying to find people who, as a board member, would bring diversity to the boardroom, as well as, you know, financial support for the organization, a passion for the cause. So there are times when I have the opportunity to influence what names get brought up as potential board members, and what governance means to me? I mean, I'm really heavily influenced by everything that I hear from Matt on a daily basis. So governance to me really does mean decision-making and how those decisions get made.
Matt
And finally, Navaz, the tomato.
Navaz
Governance is such an interesting thing. And in a way everybody in an organization plays some part in it. Governance is about decision-making. It is about the process for implementing decisions. And as a tomato or as the director of a fundraising team, my job is to make sure the decisions we make around where we make investments about growth in the future are done so in a judicious way. Where am I putting forward ideas for investments? Where am I putting forward ideas for how we actually achieve our strategic targets or revenue goals? And that then goes up to the most senior level of the organization and they say "yea or nay" they say, you know, here are other factors that we need to consider because your decision will bump up against these other factors. And then the final decision and final output of that is then taken to a board of directors. And the board of directors has to ensure that there's sound decision-making across the organization because they have that ultimate fiduciary responsibility.
Matt
I don't know about you, but this stuff is super interesting to me and sneakily important to a broader understanding of corporate governance. I tend to agree with Andrew Escobar's take that everyone in an organization plays a role in governance. No matter your title or position in the org chart people's decisions affect you. Your performance and behavior and happiness affect the way others make decisions. When you're at your best you create new opportunities for other people to explore. When you're at your worst, you take opportunities off the table. Every piece is interconnected. How much does it matter for the tomato to be aware of its role in corporate governance or to optimize its effectiveness in that role? I'll leave it for you to decide. But I know one thing for sure: the Gumpling Gang will be back! Thanks for listening
Dumpling Gang (Ep1) - What ingredient are you in the organizational sandwich?