TRANSCRIPT
Matt VO
Welcome back to Sound-Up Governance, where every episode is just like all the others...PSYCH! That's right, it's another instalment of the Dumpling Gang. Who's the Dumpling Gang? The best place to start answering that question is by scrolling back to the first Dumpling episode back on October 21 2022. In short, we're a group of nerdy friends with tons of stuff in common and tons of stuff...not in common. The gang comprises Dana Gray, who's my boo, Mary Lee, Navaz Mistry, Nico Sabourin who's Mary's boo, and me. Also, we went curling a few weeks ago, check out the photo evidence in the post. In this episode, I once again ambushed the Dumplings over dinner, slapped my mobile phone on the table, set it to record and ask them to answer a question that to me, is at the heart of good governance.
Matt
I want to know and you can choose whatever type of event crosses your mind, whether it's like dinner, hang with friends, or party or like meeting or whatever it is, what are one or two or three or whatever things that you that would make you go like, "I'm really excited to go to that."
Navaz
People I miss. I miss because we always have a really good time together. I think of this group often, because I always feel like I've learned a ton, but I've also just relaxed a ton after. Which is weird, because usually you feel like learning is a very actively, cognitively tasking thing. But when you can have that the two of those things together, I wonder what that's related to, but that's often what feels like the Dumpling group experience is like for me.
Mary
I'm gonna second that answer.
Matt
Anything to add?
Mary
That it's like, fulfilling of the soul. So it goes that and I think it's the combination of being intellectually challenged, or learning something in that manner. And then just being able to laugh and enjoy and making space for everybody. You know, what's happening in their lives. And so then learning and uncovering something new there, which I feel like it's very, like enriching. And so like, your soul feels like, energized.
Dana
Okay, I'll go next. So I'll also second what you guys have said, but for me, I don't think I have like clinical anxiety, but like, not a lot... Not all social situations are super comfortable for me. So I like a situation where I sort of feel like I can anticipate what the expectations are. And that I feel like I know in advance that I can just sort of like be myself. Because like, I mean, Matt you mentioned, like, a meeting that I might be excited about going to. A lot of what makes me uncomfortable about say going to a meeting is that in a situation like that, you sort of always have to be censoring yourself about how much is appropriate to be your authentic self, and how much is... because like, where I work, they expect you to be very authentic and honest, and they expect a lot of emotional... I don't wanna say vulnerability, necessarily, but like, that's part of the expectation. Which I personally think is not always appropriate in a work situation. And so I find navigating that really difficult. So if it's a situation where I know I'm going to be going in, and there's going to be that expectation, but I don't really have very, I don't have a lot of confidence in my ability to navigate that. If it's a situation that doesn't involve that, I'm a lot happier. I don't know if that's really relevant to your question.
Matt
It totally is.
Mary
But can I add to that? I don't think... it's funny you say that. And every time I do hear that, what I reflect on about that, is that when companies or meetings or work related meetings, let's say, are asking for authenticity, if not vulnerability, but let's say the authenticity part. The funny part about what I think of when you say that is like it's not that folks why folks are uncomfortable, at least from my aspect of one area. Is that not all authentic selves are accepted
Dana
100%
Mary
That's why it's uncomfortable is like, because there are only certain types that are actually accepted. Therefore,
Dana
Yeah you articulated exactly what I struggle with
Mary
When you said that I laughed because most people think I'm an extrovert, but I actually feel the same way as that. And people think it's easy for extroverts, but I laugh because I'm like, No, but only certain types of like communicators, or decision makers, or those that hold a certain level of authority or power are actually comfortable, because those are the only accepted types when it becomes authentic. So it's actually funny.
Dana
That's a really important component. You nailed it. Sorry, not to be pessimistic.
Matt
No, it's good! I want to ask the flip side, too. So we'll come back to that.
Nico
I think, to come back to Mary and Navaz, it's like, sharing a moment. It's like, present moment, and joining and recognize who we are, who we have around the table. And just that, to be faithful to be here to here to learn to share. This is the most important things.
Nico
And cheese
Nico
And cheese, and wine.
Matt
Cheese and wine sounds trivial, but I'm gonna I'm going to add something that's even more trivial to that that which was relevant today. It was the weather was miserable today, it was miserable. And I was excited to be here. I wasn't very excited to get here. Until you guys offered to give us a ride. Right? So there's like, also, like, for me, convenience matters. The fact that I was highly confident that the food was going to be good mattered, right? Like these kinds of things, the sort of really, really dumb, mundane, trivial human comfort stuff matters too to me. And this is not me disagreeing with I think all of what you guys said is more important. But like, the stuff matters, too, right? Like, do I even feel like getting out of bed, let alone go across the city in 90 kilometer an hour wind, and rain and whatever? Okay, so go ahead.
Navaz
Can I say something? This piece about presence has I've been thinking about presence a ton. I used to walk to work, and well continue to walk to work. But I used to walk to work, often using that time to think about what was going to come. And I started to discipline myself to not think about the past or the future. And just to be present, even if all I'm doing is observing the sidewalk or thinking about what sounds I'm hearing or not hearing. And I think when you're in a space where you're in a with a group of people where your mind isn't somewhere else, it's where you currently are. I think that that says a lot. And I didn't actually think about that's what it feels like when we're in this group! We're just always in this moment. It's a luxury not to have to feel like you're worrying about something that came before what is to come. So I think that piece about presence is also something I would add, too. When I look forward to things I look forward to things where I know I can be in that moment.
Matt
So I mean, we've all of us, not all of us, but most of us in a way. I've kind of given away the flip side, but let's say it out loud anyway. Same question only replace "excited" with "dread," right? What are the some of the things where again, whether it's a dinner hang or a party or a meeting, or conference, or whatever it is, what are some of the things that make you go like, "uuggggghh"?
Dana
Well, I already said mine, but like it does come back to like the things that I worry about are exactly what take you out of the presence, right? Of like, if you're worried about being judged, if you're worried about like, oh, how much should I share? How much should I not share? If you're not sure if what you say is going to be accepted, then you can't stay in the moment and you aren't learning you aren't connecting with people.
Navaz
I was thinking about when it's somebody else's agenda entirely. Even if it's personal or professional, when there's no, and you use that word, Mary, "space" for you. I dread that. I dread when I know it's all about something else, not what matters or is relevant to me. And it's not from a space of at least I don't think... maybe it is from a space of self-centeredness But like, if there's no place for you, then why are you even there? But so an agenda dominated entirely by someone or someone's else. Not a word, but...
Mary
Yeah, that shows up, I would say, as like a weekly routine, but then doesn't enrich or better the self that comes after that. So it can be little things, but when it doesn't, it's like, you know, it's like going to a meal that you really know you don't like the food, like coming out of it, you know, that hasn't really enriched you like because you just really didn't enjoy it. But I think of it like that, when it comes to like work meetings, those little work rituals that, you know, either it's driven by somebody else's agenda, or just like a routine that has no longer served a purpose to actually help those that are all present there to actually move forward in, in a direction that's like benefiting them.
Nico
I'm thinking about negativity, and around people I guess, but negativity, it's more because people, because even if the food is not good, there are always solutions. So...
Mary
Butter.
Navaz
Hot sauce.
Matt
Man, I don't think have anything to add, honestly. Because what I was when I think about it, the things... I don't even care whether it's work or play or whatever. If there's no point other than ticking a box. We're doing this because it's the thing we do. Like, I can't think of anything less inspiring. And if there is a point, and I liked the point, but I know I'm going to be surrounded by jerks, I also don't want to show up, right?
Dana
It's like what's the meeting triangle? That's like, like the meeting version of a gig triangle? Where it's like, is the music good, or are the people good, or is the pay good?
Matt
Yeah, right.
Dana
If it's two of the three, you take the gig. So like, what are the three things that for a meeting, two of the three makes it worth doing? Do you know what I mean?
Navaz
I've never heard of the gig triangle. But that makes so much sense.
Matt
Yeah, you rarely get all three. But you don't do it for just one.
Navaz
Huh? Okay, so what were they the pay the people or the music? Music? Okay.
Matt
Yeah, they were the job, right?
Navaz
Yeah.
Matt
Is the job something you actually are excited by? Which you can replace the music with whatever. Yeah. But, you know, the pay has gotta be pretty big to put up with jerks.
Matt VO
Think about some of the most common gripes you have about what happens in your boardroom. I bet the solutions to many of those gripes could start with a conversation exactly like what you just heard. What are the things that make your board members excited to show up? What are the things that they dread? Where is there alignment? Where is there disagreement? How can you take what you learned and turn it into some new stuff to try the next time you get together? Because it will impact how people show up and whether they're ready to engage. Thanks to the Dumplings for being the best. And thanks to you for listening
Dumpling Gang (ep.2) - Exploring a critical governance question, among friends