Ground-Up Governance
Sound-Up Governance
Sound-Up Governance (ep.29) - Discipline, joy, deadlifts, and good governance (feat. Alexander Sinora & Perry Chuinkam)
1
0:00
-27:33

Sound-Up Governance (ep.29) - Discipline, joy, deadlifts, and good governance (feat. Alexander Sinora & Perry Chuinkam)

1

TRANSCRIPT

Matt VO

Welcome back to Sound-Up Governance. Once again, my guests this episode are Alexander Sinora and Perry Chuinkam. See, I told you I'd have them back. When they joined me a few weeks back for Episode 25, we learned about the Black Wealth Club and the work that it's doing to elevate Black Canadians... and everyone else as a result. What we didn't have time to get to in that episode was who exactly Perry and Alexander are and what insights they have for us about corporate governance. So we got back together to have exactly that conversation. I mentioned it in passing that part of what made Alexander and me excited to meet each other was that we're both bass players. Let's learn more about Alexander's bass life.

Alexander Sinora 

Yeah, so bass life. I used to play concerts. lLttle jazz clubs. I'm a big jazz fusion kind of fan. So Robert Glasper. If you go back, Chick Corea, Herbie Hancock. Man, and more, you know recent stuff like Hiatus Kaiyote. I really enjoy Moonlight. I love neo soul because of that jazz fusion aspects of D'Angelo, Erykah Badu. I love also like soft ballads. Like give me some John Mayer and I you know, I'm just happy. I just love music that makes you feel things that you might not feel on a day to day basis I feel you know, I go through life by doing. I'm a big doer. Perry knows that. Perry is kind of like the thoughts behind like, me just like running and he's like, wait, you might not be running toward the right direction let's.... Music allows me to feel things at a certain moment of time. Like sometimes I don't take the time to feel like my you know what's happening in real life and taking the moment to actually appreciate it and then I hear a song. I heard some lyrics. I'm like, oh my god, like actually, I did that as well. And now I take the moment to actually realize that wow, that was a great moment. That allows me to ground myself into my own reality. Which yeah, as I feel like I'm sharing a love letter to music right now. But that's really what is it right now and playing bass, for me it's my favorite instrument. Because I feel like the bass is kind of a board of directors. Like nobody really like from some perspective, nobody can know who's on the board. You know, people don't know their names but they know that they exist and because they exist you know the guitarist you know is the CEO right? And we kind of support the people that make sound and that are more loud so for me bass guitar is kind of that silent most important aspect. And if it's off tune, just like a board, everything disappears and now you need to start all over again.

Matt 

Yeah, so and I'll just say before I move on to Perry, you basically all the stuff that you listed all the artists that that you that inspire you that's like all the like the literally the best bass players in like the last 50 years of pop music.

Alexander Sinora 

Even John Mayer has Pino Palladino. Come on now.

Matt 

And D'Angelo, too, you got Pino all over it.

Alexander Sinora 

Yeah, I'm a big Motown fan as well you know, James Jamerson and one finger P bass, holding it down.

Matt 

So Perry, I'll admit to knowing less about your, your personal life, other than the fact that you're a huge tennis player, which I want to know more about, but maybe you can just tell me about your passions,

Perry Chuinkam 

Like definitely tennis since I was a kid. As competitive as I can as a kid. Now it's perhaps more, well, definitely more recreational. Powerlifting, yeah, competed at that as well. Yeah, basically, varsity I did tennis, powerlifting, basketball and...there was one more.

Alexander Sinora 

You did basketball? Really?

Perry Chuinkam 

Yeah. In the UK. Wait there was four. I can't remember the fourth. Tennis, basketball.

Matt 

Okay. I gotta ask you a question, though.

Perry Chuinkam 

Rugby. That's the other one.

Matt 

Okay. Yeah. Okay, so for and I don't know much about powerlifting. But for anyone who who's listening who does, you want to tell us your personal records?

Matt 

Yeah, right. It's intense

Perry Chuinkam 

I'll, express it in terms of plates because I get lost in the conversion between kilograms and pounds now. Squat, six plates. Deadlift, about seven. And bench four.

Matt 

You're a beast, man.

Alexander Sinora 

Each side?

Perry Chuinkam 

Yeah.

Alexander Sinora 

Christ.

Perry Chuinkam 

That's, that's fun. I don't lean too much on the numbers, like one of the greatest powerlifters of all time, like, Ed Coan. Somebody asked him like, how does it feel to lift through a number let's say 1000 pounds, and he asked the person "Hey, what's your max?" So the person says 300, he says "It feels the same." Right? Ultimately, each person is pushing themselves to their limit. And the limit feels the same, like doing the most you can do is going to feel like doing the most you can do. So it's about building that structure, and that pain tolerance, and that resilience over a period of time, right? Because you don't walk in. And if you're Max, you need to have a pan build up over a 12 week, 16 week, one year period, chip away at it diligently, like embrace the pain of every workout and ultimately get what you're trying to get out of it in competition or local meet whatever the the stage might be. And that's what I like about it.

Matt 

No wonder you're a process guy though. Holy smokes, like the way that you approach this stuff, you actually get results. It's an amazing what a remarkable accomplishment. So okay, you can take us wherever you want. I just latched on to the powerlifting thing, because it just it seems so intense. And it clearly is. But tell us more about your, your passion life.

Perry Chuinkam 

I mean, like that. But then that's the other thing. I'll just say one thing about that. It's not necessarily like intense. And this is where I think sometimes folks are not charitable enough to folks to people that have different passions in them. Because it's always funny. It's like people will see someone that is great at one thing and say, "Well, how come you're not equally dedicated to this?" Well, because they're not equally passionate about it. But like when people say, Oh, they struggle to go lift weights. Like it's not a struggle, because I look forward to it. Right? I enjoy it. Right. There's other things that I do not enjoy that our struggle, but this is not one of them.

Alexander Sinora 

This is such a great point. I was I was talking with someone recently about like discipline. And you know, and I think a lot of people might see like, "Oh, you're so disciplined, you go to the gym!" Like you don't even consider that discipline. I feel lik discipline only matters when it's something that you actually do not want to do. But you still do constantly. And not necessarily the thing that you actually enjoy, and then just being good at it.

Perry Chuinkam 

And if you enjoyed it, it's easier. Yeah, exactly. It's like, yeah, it's like I look forward to it in my day.

Alexander Sinora 

Yeah, it's not discipline. It's like just happiness.

Matt VO

The main reason I wanted to put this part of the conversation at the beginning of the episode is just to re-emphasize how freaking cool these guys are, and how fun their vibe is with each other. Plus the valuable insight about the complex relationships between joy, effort and discipline, and Alexander's impeccable taste and bass playing. And also for those of you who have no idea what six plates or seven plates means when it comes to powerlifting, Perry just told us that his personal record for squat is 585 pounds or 265 kilograms, and for deadlift is 675 pounds or 306 kilograms. What???? And it turns out, they have some super cool insights on corporate governance, top. Let's start with their perspective on what good governance even is, starting with Perry.

Perry Chuinkam 

I think it is the alignment of the interests and health of the organization, to the needs of the customers, the let's call it the staff of the organization, and the shareholders. That alignment across all three groups is essential to I would say effective corporate governance, because you could probably get away with any combination of two of the three for for a period of time. But that would be detrimental to the long term viability of the organization. So it's combining the understanding of what's being done, who it's being done for, what is the right way to do it, and what is the right way to take care of all the stakeholders.

Matt 

And what I'm really interested in is if we think about the purpose and objectives and community and stakeholders around the Black Wealth Club, tell me what role does the organization play towards the system of good governance, good corporate governance, let's say but even more importantly, hat can we do, or how can the participants - the people who are benefiting from the Black Wealth Club -  what's the role they can play in pushing towards good governance in Canadian organizations and beyond?

Perry Chuinkam 

I think the first thing that comes to mind there is some of the things that we insist upon people at the point of membership, right? Which is, they need to demonstrate a commitment to giving back to the community. And also even in the onboarding documents, we have like a morality clause. I think the combination of those two things sort of sets up that you ought to be a person that demonstrates the level of rectitude, and some level of selflessness, or charity, in order to contribute to all the organizations that you're a part of. Iincluding this one.

Alexander Sinora 

That was perfect. So this is how we expect people to... our members to actually give back. And for us, from an organizational standpoint, our role is to document have our own KPIs to assess impact. And then after that, that different, you know, just to speak about another stakeholder, sponsors, and things like that, we can share with them exactly what we've been up to. So it's a mix of, you know, sharing the vision to the club members so that they actually, you know, give back then, for us to collect those data points and then share it to different stakeholders.

Perry Chuinkam 

The way we try to communicate this effectively is we try to make sure everyone involved at all levels is familiar with, what the vision is, what our objectives are, and how we're trying to achieve those. So at the board level, we communicate that periodically make sure there's alignment, when we connect with external sponsors, we make sure that they support what we are trying to achieve in the long term. With the members, we always look at many different ways to not only increase engagement, but to increase clarity about our purpose.

Matt VO

I was curious for Alexander and Perry's thoughts about the Black North Initiative, which is a Canadian organization that, among other things, works to elevate Black Canadian professionals into positions of influence. In general, I'm a supporter of quotas when it comes to board diversity. I mean, they work in ways that no other tool has. Black North Initiative has promoted a broad objective that Black people should hold 3.5% of board seats in Canada, in line with the percentage of Black Canadians in the overall population. I expressed to Perry and Alexander that I find that particular quota a bit annoying, because what exactly is a typical board of 10-ish directors supposed to do with a number like 3.5%? Since they're smarter than me, and also Black themselves, they see it a bit differently.

Alexander Sinora 

I think it was the right objective, because the reality is that I think that yes, of course, we can do way much better than that. But I think this is a great start. And I think that this number makes senset to me. The reality about the Black North Initiative, is that we cannot, you know, the Black Wealth Club cannot really live without kind of Black North. And what I mean by that, is that Black North is a top down approach. Right? It's CEOs. Us, it's a bottom up approach, we have like young emerging leader coming in, and we need to create that kind of bridge between both aspects. So for sure, you know, in the future, I would love to have way more than 3.5% and I think in Canada it's such as small space that most corporate directors are like, you know, it's always the same names that popping up, right. And we hope that at some point, we're able to, like, you know, balance it out. But I do believe that this is, you know, I think this is like a measurable, you know, objective that can be done that is close enough to happen. And then hopefully, we'll be able to push past that.

Perry Chuinkam 

The way we sometimes look at is pipeline, right? And if we extend that analogy, if somebody at end is approving the building of the pipes, and at the other end, somebody's making sure water flows through it. Now, when we think about it, from that perspective, we say, okay, how do we equip as many people as possible so that when they do create those, those opportunities, and from the top, and there's tons of people that not only are qualified, but feel qualified to step into those spots. Right? So that's why some of the workshops we do with some of the major executive recruiting companies in Canada, etc, help people get prepared, and also feel prepared to step into those those positions on boys at senior executive level,

Alexander Sinora 

Their goal, it's a means to an end. And hopefully, at some point, you don't need to think about it. Right? That 3.5% of the board that is diverse will also have a say in terms of okay, who are we recruiting next? And what happens is that people are way more open to hear different kind of suggestion around the table. So it, it perpetuates itself, in a sense. So now the people that was overlooked might be, you know, see, you're way more open to bring more diversity, or bring more ideas around the table. So does it become like, Oh, should we okay, we're at 3.5%. Okay, let's just, you know, say like, somebody that is not diverse, I think the discussion, the rational change, because the point of views are more diverse right now. So I think it's a win win. And it shouldn't create a situation where it's like, oh, we already have our quota, let's focus about something else. Because the 3.5% will not say oh, yeah, you're right. We're two of us. Amazing. Like, let's move on. Right. I don't think I don't think it works like that.

Matt 

Yeah, I think you're right. So let me rewind to both of you talked about good governance as fundamentally being around being curious about and and working to serve the interests of multiple stakeholders. When we if you're just any old corporate director, walking in the room, regardless of what your expertise is, right, regardless of what your professional background is. What is it that makes someone, in your assessment, good, right? So if what we're doing when we walk in the room is we're aiming towards good governance and good governance is in service of the interests of a diverse set of stakeholders, how do we walk in the room and do a good job at that? What makes someone good at that?

Perry Chuinkam 

The first thing that came to mind is different ways of approaching the problem with a common goal to trying to solve the problem in an honest way. That's that's one critical thing I find valuable when trying to build those groups for effective governance. And that sort of cascades. So if you take that definition, it applies across the various criteria you might need within a good governance framework. So for instance, if you need a financial accounting acumen, someone or strategic acumen, etc, all of those would constitute elements of diversity, elements of different thought of different expertise that collectively move towards resolving a problem.

Alexander Sinora 

Well, one thing I would like to add, once again, a bit more on the human level. I think the most because you said, you know, how do you define somebody that will provide good governance, for me, it's self awareness, I think there's something really sexy about boards, and people jumping on boards and trying to do it, and you're like, Oh, my God, my network will be so great. But I think what matters the most is self awareness. Understanding where the organization is, understanding if you're the right person for it. For example, being on the board of, you know, the Black Wealth Club, everybody's super hands on. So they are incredible people. But they actually have to make those connections, actually have to make introduction, they have to actually be there in person, they have to think about us and random moments and random discussion. If you are, you know, you're you sit on the board of, let's say, like a big hospital, maybe it's not the same thing. Maybe it's just, you know, you have your campaign annually, you send a couple emails, you raise money, and then you know, you move on to the next thing. And once again, I talk maybe from inexperience and not being there. But that's kind of you know, when it's a more established organization, I think that the challenges are different, and the kind of effort will be different as well. And when I say effort, I don't qualify as one that has more effort than the other just is it the kind of effort that you actually want to do.

Perry Chuinkam 

It reminded me for instance, of an experience I've had before where, like, I'm on a board where I'm not going to, my value is not going to be network. Because there's tons of people that are way better at that than I am. I have no network, right? But I you have to have the self awareness to identify what that organization does need of you and be willing, and on occasion, humble enough to know that that is the space that you're going to fill. And that is the way in which you're going to help. If you come at it without the aim of helping and contributing, you can just be stuck in this place where you're just another number at the table. And if you have self awareness, as Alexander described, hopefully, that's not the case.

Matt VO

While talking to these guys, I thought back to the conversations that I'd recently had with Chih-Ting Lo, showcased in episodes 27 and 28, where her concern and mine too was figuring out how to make it more obvious to young people when they're qualified and capable to be effective directors and to shift boards' mindsets so that they're more likely to, you know, recruit them. I was interested in Alexander's and Perry's perspectives, especially given the impact that the Black Wealth Club has on its membership.

Alexander Sinora 

I think there is twofold, right, so the members, and then the people already on the boards giving the board members a chance to join the board. So from our member perspective, I can assure you that like probably 95% of them are...let's say 100%. I was thinking about university students. If I remove the university students, 100% of them has whatever it takes to sit on boards. And I can say that with confidence. For them what they need, is to maybe just accept that fact, which sounds super basic. Like I mean, you know, if if you're the first person to doubt yourself, I mean, nobody will trust you, right? But again, there's a lot of you know, we can talk about that for a long time. There's a lot of reasons why you might feel less confident. Maybe you don't see yourself, like, there's so many reasons why you might not feel confident. But I can assure you that that they are. And on the other side, I would say to be open to do things differently, not even willing to give a chance, because it's not about chance, because they already, they're already here. I think it's just different ways of processing the recruitment of board members. What I mean by that, maybe that person is not in your network, maybe you cannot call anyone to ask, "Hey, have you heard about that person?" And you should be okay with, you know, going to different kinds of channels. I think it's about changing the ways that board memberships are mostly made. Often, it's also often the same household name, right? I mean, I worked at Deloitte, I worked at McKinsey. Deloitte. And you have Stikeman lawyers, right, and you have  Fasken lawyers. It's often you know, the same corporations, and there is a big reason for it. Obviously, they are great. I mean, they they are the top law firm, they are the top accounting firm, and that's okay. But the reality is that we need to re kind of assess how do we how do we find different kinds of individual and I think it goes back, and I'm not even talking about the diversity of, you know, skin whatsoever, I'm talking about diversity of thoughts as well.

Alexander Sinora 

So for instance, one organization that I was a part of, they realized that they were suffering from not having that youth representation, given that part of the core audience was that youth. And as a consequence of that, they deliberately created youth board seats to fill that gap, right. So it goes from understanding what your mission is, then understanding what helps you fulfill that mission, and then creating the structures or the roles to optimize the possibility of that success. And that's how you come to realize that, okay, if this is a perspective that impacts what you're trying to achieve, then you should make sure it's at the table in that capacity and, and perhaps do carve out that space.

Alexander Sinora 

And shameless plug, actually, that happened to me. Desjardins, the cooperative, I was part of that kind of board, like a youth board. It was awesome. And we actually had the chance of, you know, sitting down with other executives, sharing ideas, a few ideas got implemented, it was super well done. So just wanted to say, keep going. Yeah, that was great. And I had a tremendous experience there.

Matt 

Yeah, and I, you know, it's interesting, I'm thinking about both, both of your reactions, plus the, the missed opportunity, in my opinion on the part of the search consultants who get in front of your community to... I think that could be a system level message. And maybe a movement. That just sort of says, If what makes a director effective is self awareness, for example. And in fact, if you listen to, to even the most senior corporate directors in the world, they'll say, curiosity, independent mindedness, multiple perspectives, willingness to speak truth to power, willingness to admit when you're wrong. They don't say, "oh, you know, what makes someone an amazing director is that they're a lawyer at Stikeman." Right? They you don't want need just any old lawyer, you need someone who's got all those other interpersonal characteristics, right? Well, I would argue that none of that interpersonal stuff is age related, or demographic related in any across any variable, right. Someone who's self aware, it could look like anything. And so I think there's an opportunity. And maybe I can try this is my call to action to the listeners is let's perpetuate this message, right? That maybe you don't need a board full of 25 year olds. I mean, I don't care either way. But that the there's not much of a barrier to a young person adding value in a boardroom. The barrier is the barrier they face to get in the room in the first place. And I think that's obnoxious.

Alexander Sinora 

No, I fully agree. And I think that yeah, we just need to change the way that we're doing it. And let's remember, I think, average age in Canada is like 40-41. You need younger people, your target audience, your average audience is around that age in genaral.  You know, it's super important to to have a good, you know, representation there. And I think that the...

Matt 

I'm officially above average now.

Alexander Sinora 

That's good. That's good for you. You aged gracefully.

Matt 

Thanks.

Alexander Sinora 

But one thing for sure. Another shameless plug, to my past organization. But, you know, advancing diversity on boards, McKinsey did a ton of research on that on how, you know, it actually increase your company performance. Like it's, it's, it's fact based, it's factual. So I think it's just a missed opportunity for many people to not have diversity from an age perspective, from background from school from, you know, law firms from whatever it is. I think that there is a lot of untapped potential. And I think that, you know, it would have prevented many, many, many, many, many, unfortunate situations like we saw with, you know, whatever it is

Matt 

Everything

Alexander Sinora 

Hockey Canada, for example, maybe if it was a bit more diverse, and somebody were to speak up, maybe not. And I don't know what happened specifically, but for sure, I think that it raises issue way faster than than the status quo.

Matt VO

More than most governance nerds, I'm super reluctant to draw direct connections between governance and financial performance or even governance and the avoidance of catastrophic failures. I mean, we can never know what might have happened in an alternate universe. But still, I really like the examples that Alexander and Perry are sharing of the opportunities they've had to gain exposure to organizational leadership and boards. And I believe, like they do, that the work they're doing can have an important and positive impact on boardrooms, while also elevating and empowering brilliant people who continue to face injustice from all fronts, including barriers to leadership positions. Thanks for tuning in to Soun-Up Governance. It really is so fun to share these conversations with you. I hope you're learning as much as I am and feel as inspired as I do. And don't forget to file your compliments and complaints by sending an email or voice memo or video or whatever to soundup@groundupgovernance.com. Catch you next time. Meanwhile, now's as good a time as any to get to work on your deadlifts.

1 Comment