TRANSCRIPT
Matt VO
Welcome back to Sound-Up Governance. Continuing the recent theme where my guests have been young people with remarkable paths through and perspectives on corporate governance. This week we have Karim Morgan. Today, Karim calls himself a fixer and a challenge seeker, which having known him for years and years, I can verify it's a perfect description. Although I think it's also fair to say that the challenges find Karim because he's such an effective fixer. In any case we met when he was the board chair at b current, an amazing theatre company in Toronto, about which Karim will tell us more in a second. We talked about his amazing path to the boardroom, the quirks of governance in the arts and a bunch more interesting stuff. Starting with Karim's origin story, which goes like this.
Karim Morgan
My origin story. Born and raised in Jamaica. My family emigrated to Canada when I was 11 years old. Grew up in the burbs, grew up in Brampton. Went to university, downtown Toronto, and was a professional actor for close to 20 years. Moved to the UK for a couple of years. And I would I tend to say, born and raised in Jamaica, grew up in Canada, came into my own as an adult as a man in the UK. And I've been evolving since then.
Matt
So can you remind me if I'm, if I dreamt this or if it's real, that there exists a photo of you with Bob Marley?
Karim Morgan
Oh my gosh, so my father...
Matt
I didn't dream it!
Karim Morgan
You didn't dream it. No, no, at one point, my father in Jamaica, worked for the Jamaica Defence Force. And that was brief from what I understand. Out of university he worked for, I think Ministry of Health and then did a stint with in the army. But I don't know if he was an actual soldier, to be honest. Because he was in telecommunications. So he might have been there in that capacity. But I'm not too sure. At one point when Bob Marley was, I guess, I don't know if he was touring or whatnot. But going across the country, his detail was people from the army. So my father got to be part of that. They're going to rural areas. And they pass the district where my mother's family is, is from and I was a baby at the house and we're passing back, they're passing the house. And my father offered, hey, do you want to stop? Do you want some coconut whatever it is. And so from there, it was all contrived on my father's part. And he's like, "Here hold a baby!" Snap.
Matt
We don't have to tell the whole story of how our paths crossed. Because it's not that's not the important part of your journey. But how the heck tell me how you took from you got from that origin story to being the chair of a board.
Karim Morgan
Holy crow. I had moved to UK. When I decided to come back to Canada, I realized that perhaps I couldn't pursue acting in the same capacity as before. I was doing okay, but I wasn't doing well, in terms of where I wanted to be monetarily. It dawned on me that if anything were to happen to myself, or like, God forbid, my mom, I wouldn't be able to support us. And it was a wake up call for me. And I don't ever want to be in a situation where I can't do for my mom or for myself. And that meant, you know, some financial stability. Not that acting was frivolous or anything like that, because it really did feed my soul a big part of who I am. But I realized, yeah, I needed that sort of assurance. Stuff that actors don't really want to talk about or want. So when I came back, I was trying to discover what that would be here. And in the meantime, I was getting some offers and one of them was from the artistic director of b current who I admire so much. And she had asked if I was interested in collaborating on something I was like, "not really," because timewise and monetarily, what does it mean? And I think I was also trying to unpack all the stuff that I'd experienced in London, because it was a lot. There was some issues. I think I might have mentioned that one incident with a skinhead. There was just a lot that I didn't anticipate and so coming back, I think I was a little traumatized. And I think I you know, I needed the time to sort of breathe and get my footing. In retrospect, I felt reverse culture shock coming back. I remember walking on Queen Street one time and thinking, "why does this feel so foreign and weird? I know Queen Street!" But feeling you know, like an outsider. Anyway, She asked again and again. And then finally she asked if I would be willing to come and sit on the board to observe at first. So I was like, "You know what? That I can do!" That I'm interested. So okay, sure, it's not going to hurt. Let me come to your board meeting and see what it's all about. And plus, I just sort of discovered what b current was really about and thought, "Wow, if I knew about this company when I was in theater school, or just left theater school, my career would have gone in a different direction." I think I would have taken more ownership as an artist and created more work, felt empowered, you know, to do for myself, instead of asking,
Matt
Right. Let's pause, then, your story. Tell me about b current.
Karim Morgan
it started out. The artistic director, founder and artistic director, Ahdri Zhina Mandiela, as a lot of people call it feminist theater. From what I understand the current came from the necessity for Black female artists to have the opportunity to work to, you know, be seen, heard and have their work showcased. And it was a place where they could come, they could create and they could produce. And then that evolved over the years into facilitating other people from marginalized communities, and just people who weren't given the opportunity, who weren't taken seriously. I think now we say that it serves artists from the Black and Brown diaspora. Those who know about it can cultivate whatever they imagine. It's opened so many doors, to, for some of the top Black artists or Black actors, I should say, in the country, have all somehow been a part of b current. It's the home for every artist who feels unheard, unseen, to have a professional setting, and do the work that they know they can do and should be seen. I'm probably not doing it justice right now, but...
Matt
No, this, I mean, even just that is powerful. And if you don't mind pick up the story where where I paused because you described that point of connection to b current and with Ahdri. What happened next?
Karim Morgan
So, I showed up to the meeting. And I guess from my experience, like I've sat on different organizations as an advisor, so I sort of expected this formality. And I got to the studio, and it was Ahdri and two other people, and myself. And that was it. So, I was like, "where's everybody else?" And she kind of explained, "Well, we're sort of in a situation where people have great intentions, you know, when people start off, and then just kind of fizzle out." And so the board has diminished and dwindled. And I was like, "oh, but the work, the company does the significance, people should be lining up to be part of this organization to make sure that it doesn't dissipate." And she's like, "Absolutely. I knew you'd get that." I'm like, "okay, so what do we do to make it better?" So we started having conversations about, you know, making sure that the board was healthy. You need that foundation to support all these, the community and also the vision of the company, like, what happens if the three people something happense to them, what happens to the organization, you know? It needs some knees a little bit more formality. And then after a little while, I was sort of appointed as the chair. And I tried to do you know, the traditional thing. You go out, and you talk to the lawyers to see if they, anyone would be interested in being a member of the board, and you talk to accountants and all that. And what I realized is the people who fit that profile weren't necessarily people who understood the art, understood the importance of supporting artists. And it wasn't necessarily people who not to be hokey, but had a respect for the spirit of the thing, right? And so I went to Ahdri because she asked how it was going, I'm like, "Well, I've talked to friends who are lawyers, and they're interested, but I think they just want to have another checkmark on their resume. So I don't know. It's just just doesn't feel right." And she's like, "so what feels right?" And this is why she's such a great teacher in such a great mentor, because she asks the questions that provoke, you know, thought and then and then action. I said, "Well, honestly, I think I should go talk to people who I know I can depend on. People who get it and people who I know will stick around even if I'm not there." She's like, "well then go do it." And that's what I did. I started talking to friends who had a certain level of notoriety, respect, and friends who I knew were intelligent. into a reliable, dependable and had either a direct link to the arts or an understanding and appreciation of the arts. And in so doing, I had, I think initially four people come on. And then after that it sort of evolved and over the years, of course, people life, life dictates this, people came, people went. And then people came who had more experience and great ideas. And it's always been, I would say, an evolution. It's always been an improvement as the years went on. So when somebody decide decided at some point, you know, okay, it's, I think it's time for me to leave, it was never a total disappointment. It was like, Okay, this is an opportunity now to grow. And it's been that ever, it's always been that and that I think, was one of the most rewarding things is to see how it just organically got better and better.
Matt
So okay, just for context, and you don't have to reveal your age directly if you don't want to, but roughly how old were you when you became a board chair?
Karim Morgan
Holy crow. I was early 30s.
Matt
I don't know if I ever met everybody in the same place at the same time. But I think I ultimately met most, if not all of your board members. The average age of board members would be what roughly let's ballpark it.
Karim Morgan
Around that. And I think we were all in our 30s.
Matt
That's weird.
Karim Morgan
Yeah.
Matt
Right? So what is that just a product of the process that you described? Or was it intentional? What happened?
Karim Morgan
It was not intentional. And in fact, now that you say it, our Vice Chair at one point, his parents were in town, and they're from out west, and both very active in multiple boards, international boards, in fact. And they came into town, and they were kind enough to kind of sit with us, and give us almost a masterclass. And they were so reassuring. And they said, "What you guys are doing, you don't even realize the level that you are at, most boards, people twice your age aren't even at that level." And we're like, "oh, we're just doing what we think needs to get done and trying to make sure we do it correctly."
Matt
And they said "exactly!"
Karim Morgan
Exactly. And they said and all the challenges and concerns that we voiced they said, "Oh, bless your hearts, you think it's unique to you. No, that's universal. The challenges you're facing? It's universal with every board. So you guys are actually in a good place." But yeah, I think nobody was in their 40s at the time.
Matt
Yeah. And let's be clear, we're not talking about just sort of some random motley crew of young people we're talking about, like, you know, if you made a checklist of the things that an arts world board would want, you kind of had that, right? You had people of and from and for the community, you had legal expertise, you had fundraising expertise, you had all these things,
Karim Morgan
It all came! It all came because we didn't have it all at first, you know, people were wearing multiple hats, and, you know, seeking assistance and advice from friends and family members, until ultimately, people with their own with those credentials, became part of the organization.
Matt
This wasn't a flash in the pan for you. You were there for how long?
Karim Morgan
Ten years
Matt
Yeah, that's a long time to be, and you were board chair for 10 years.
Karim Morgan
Yeah.
Matt
So I mean, what happened? That's a long time. Why were you there for so long? What what caused you to decide it was time to go? I mean, that's, that's a pretty big deal, both the duration and the ending of it.
Karim Morgan
I hope it doesn't sound flippant, but I know what needed to get done. And until it was at a place where I knew it was stable enough, I wasn't going to leave. And not that I kind of got there and sat there and said, "I'm not leaving until..." Because I was appointed year after year. There was a casualness about it, as well, like a there was, we never got too caught up in all the formalities.
Matt
No, there was a spirit of experimentation almost, right?
Karim Morgan
Absolutely! We were all learning. And, you know, there was some forgiveness there as well. Like, we knew we're never going to get everything right. But, you know, we also try not to mess things up too badly, which we never really did, which is, you know, fortunate. If I knew about the company at that specific time in my life, I know what it could have done for me. And I wanted to make sure the company would always be in a position where it could offer that to somebody fresh out of school, or somebody in the community who heard about the company, got introduced to the company, to realize that there was that support, there was that organization that would help them, that would cultivate the best part of themselves. And that to me, I couldn't give up on. So when it got to a point where I realized that I didn't have to wear the hat of HR or I didn't have to wear the hat of CFO or you know, and we had people more than capable of doing that, I kind of became redundant. It was a good thing. I remember sitting in one meeting, and I realized, "Oh, I hardly said anything in this meeting, I literally only chaired the meeting." And then I was like, oh, oh, it's that time.
Matt VO
We've been talking a lot on the show lately about the reasons why it seems so hard for organizations to embrace the extraordinary potential of young people in the boardroom. I suppose a short answer to that question is that there aren't more organizations like b current and more board chairs like Karim. Sure, he was given significant leeway to build an approach to governance that suited him as board chair and served the company as a whole. But not everybody would have approached the situation with such freedom and joy. One of the first times I hung out with the b current board, we did a session that felt like a delightful gathering of friends. Potluck dinner, comfy furniture, space for bonding and casual conversation, but also a deep willingness to get to work, to challenge each other, to dream about the future. Sounds almost like board paradise, right? But it's not without its challenges, big and small, some of which are almost baked into the DNA of artistic organizations.
Matt
A typical theatre organization - by typical I mean, sort of generically typical - has a managing director and an artistic director who both report to the board. And the relationship between those two roles is, as a result of them both reporting to the board, a little bit strange. Not bad. Strange. It's unusual in most other types of organizations to have two people at the top of the organization reporting to the board and having really mutually dependent roles, but an unusual hierarchy. So I'm going to put, I'm just going to say that's weird. It presents some unusual challenges, in my opinion. And I'm curious how, to the extent that you're willing to share, how did that manifest, in your experience as board chair, having two people report to you basically, at the top of the organization?
Karim Morgan
We played around with the organizational structure quite a bit. At one point, we even had Co-Artistic Directors
Matt
That's even more complicated!
Karim Morgan
Right? But to your point, it was weird. And we accepted it, because that seemed to be the norm everywhere else. So we thought this must be the way it works. But it wasn't quite working. So I put forward the notion that perhaps we could have an Executive Director who both Artistic Director, and General Manager or Managing Director, we changed the title so many times, that they could report to that person, that person reports to the board. And in theory, it sounds great. But some people were a little bit hesitant. It didn't materialize during my tenure. But to my understanding, it's since materialized with this specific company. It did pose a challenge when we had both Artistic Director and Managing Director reporting to the board, reporting to me, because there's always going to be a human element.
Matt
Especially in the arts, come on.
Karim Morgan
Yeah. Right?
Matt
That's mean. But there's a different. There's a different flavor of ego in the arts.
Karim Morgan
There's a sensibility that you need to have, when you're dealing with artists. There is a certain respect, a certain understanding. And sometimes when I say that, people think I'm saying that artists are temperamental or whatnot. It's like it's, oh, no, it's just who we love art, we... we're dramatic. But there were times where the issues that I was having to deal with wasn't necessarily the work, it would come up in the context of the work, but the root of it wasn't the work. And so it became challenging because it was counseling. And this being a volunteer position, you know, it became a bit taxing. And you want to be sensitive to people, but you also have a company to run, you have that accountability. You've got artists to pay and all that. And so sometimes you want to say, "grow up." But you're not going to say it, right? So you got to be diplomatic and professional and all that sort of stuff. So it was this really tricky balancing act.
Matt
One of the things that I find about that Managing Director, Artistic Director separation and both reporting to the board I feel like it's an almost unfair burden on the board to try to manage the interests of those two things. Especially given that arts organizations, typically are volunteer boards, and the interests of the Managing Director and the interests of the Artistic Director are going to inherently be divergent from each other. Especially if you hire correctly, you want an Artistic Director who didn't really care about the success financially of the organization and has big ideas, big, provocative, audacious stuff that they want to do. And the Managing Director is responsible for, you know, getting stuff done.
Karim Morgan
Absolutely.
Matt
But how is a board supposed to balance that?
Karim Morgan
Because they're accountabilities are different yet the board's saying "work together and make it, you know, make it wonderful." And there were times where the Artistic Director would say, "Well, why is why are they being so difficult? Like, well, are they being difficult? Or are they informing you of the challenges that they're facing to, you know, sort of, I don't know, make your dream a reality or you know, your vision come to life? There's, there's certain checks and balances that they have to take into account? So it's not just a yes or no, it's not that they're trying to sabotage your idea. But trying to communicate that right, or trying to get that understanding is challenging sometimes. And likewise, you know, if the Managing Director said, "well, the contracts seem a little bit odd, and or I wasn't really looped into this conversation," and then you find out that oh, oh, it was just that, you know, just that. A conversation. like, oh, well, it has to be formalized in a contract, which the Managing Director, that's their role, so you kind of have to follow suit.
Matt
It's this like, you know, very complex tension between, you don't want the the administration of organization to stifle an artistic vision. And you don't, you can't enable every element of an artistic vision, no matter what the cost or whatever, no matter what the trade offs. And having no buffer between that and the board is it's just a lot to ask.
Matt VO
So after spending 10 years as a board chair with all the messiness you just heard about, I was curious to know what, if any, ambitions Karim has to get back into the boardroom in some capacity. I mean, it's been two years, so I figured he'd either be itching to get back or too traumatized to even think about it. So does he want to give it another shot?
Karim Morgan
Absolutely. But I think I definitely need to try something else. A different discipline, a different field, a different perspective altogether. I think I'll always have the connection to the arts. But...been there done that. So yeah, yeah. Ready for another challenge,
Matt
I'm gonna oversimplify for the sake of making a point. But you know exactly what I mean. One of the ways that Karim and I bonded was we like nice things across many different intersecting axes, including that we've got a nice bottle of bourbon on the table between us right now. And you're, you're on to a new interesting thing that is all about keeping people in fancy stuff. So tell us about that.
Karim Morgan
Yet another challenge, something I've never done. Launching a new venture with my former boss, we're both launching what we term experiential retail. So we're merging two things that we like a lot. Which is, whenever we, you know, went on trips, we always made sure that our executive team not only did their work, but they also enjoy themselves. So we'd always choose somewhere nice. And we'd also curate the experiences while we were away. So whether it be dinners or an experience or taking in the arts or something like that, there was always something unique and something great. One of the things that we would do is we would go a few days before everyone else. So we would check out all the restaurants, find all the nice things. The nice shops and whatnot. So we've combined both of those. We're calling it Catherine's Chateau and it's going to be launched in Collingwood this summer. And it's two things in one: it's a retail store, and it's just going to be homewear nothing major, nicer things for the house. And we're coupling it with a champagne cafe. And so you'll have the opportunity to come and try different champagnes. What we're planning to do is cycled six champagnes at a time and just a limited menu to not make it too overwhelming for us. So you can come you can shop you can drink, you can drink you can shop and just have a great time. So of course, like I said, it's a great challenge for both of us because neither Catherine or I have experience in you know, food and beverage, but it's been going well, so far. Some challenges, but nothing that you know, insurmountable. So yeah, pretty good.
Matt
This is a really good example of you not being afraid of the stuff that would make us mortals overwhelmed. And we when when we met downstairs, we're at my office right now. And when I met Karim on the main floor today, he was in the middle of a phone call, and it's a phone call or conversation.... I've been on the other end of with you before, and I've heard you deploy this type of guidance to other people before. It's, I mean, if I was going to be really mundane about it, it's your natural coaching tendency. The management of of intense personalities or the deployment of good advice in the in service of managing difficult personalities, and giving people new vocabulary to use to help people feel included and comfortable, even if they're kind of jerks. Like, is it as obvious to you how good you are at this as it is to me?
Karim Morgan
No. But I've heard it from other people. So I guess I have to accept that it's one of my strengths.
Matt
Yeah. I mean, it's almost like you dispense this type of guidance effortlessly, which is probably how you ended up a board chair without even realizing it.
Karim Morgan
Probably. Me and my big mouth.
Matt
Yeah, right.
Matt VO
What an amazing privilege to know and chat with Karim, and to have had the chance to see him in action as a board chair. For the past year or so, I've been comparing great board chairs to great dinner hosts. And it never occurred to me until editing this podcast that Karim and his work at b current may have, not so subtly planted that seed. And how amazing is it to think of this amazing group of young professionals dedicating their time and talent to govern this cool organization? Not because it was easy - it wasn't - or because it's lucrative or glorious - definitely isn't that either. Or even because they're hoping to pad their resumes with board experience. No, they believe in the purpose and impact of the organization and are eager to bring a spirit of experimentation. To take chances, to make mistakes, to grow and to learn. Thanks to Karim, for cultivating that environment, and for taking time to chat with me. And thank you for listening to Sound-Up Governance. As always, please send your questions, ideas, restaurant recommendations, cocktail recipes, and anything else to soundup@groundupgovernance.com. Until next time.
Sound-Up Governance (ep.32) - Governance in arts organizations can be weird...and fun! (feat. Karim Morgan)