TRANSCRIPT
Matt Voiceover
Welcome back to Sound-Up Governance. My guest today is the next and last in a little miniseries featuring people in the startup and tech environments. Also, she's up to some amazingly cool stuff. Rose Genele is the CEO of The Opening Door, a revenue operations consultancy. But that's not how we met. A mutual friend introduced us because Rose was starting something called the New Face of Inclusion Summit, an awesome event for leaders in the tech space which Rose will describe to us in a sec. Not insignificantly Rose is also a serious musician: a singer and woodwind player. And as you'll soon come to realize, has a creative spark that gives all the things she does a little extra... I don't know, spirit, maybe. Anyway, let's let Rose tell us about the New Face of Inclusion Summit 2023.
Rose Genele
It's all about giving leaders the skills they need to be inclusive leaders and build inclusive companies. And so we're looking at fundamental skills for leadership where, you know, we used to see companies really invest in their leaders invest in leadership training and management training. And since pandemic and, and many other socio economic things, we've seen that a lot less. And so it's an opportunity for people to brush up on their leadership skills in the sense of fundamentals, but also to understand inclusive leadership, to get introduced the idea, to pick up the skills that they need to be inclusive leaders. How we use culture, to create a space of psychological safety, which means that people don't fear making mistakes or asking questions, or trying new things. And those pieces are so critical to building an organization, to driving towards goals, to innovating. That's a little bit about the summit, what we're trying to achieve. And it's virtual. It's going to be hosted on Zoom events. We have some incredible speakers, we have about 15 speakers, four content tracks, and just one day of learning about all things leadership and inclusion, and specifically inclusive leadership.
Matt
So just to make sure that, and I think you've already described this connection, but let's really zero in on it. Why does this matter so much for the tech world?
Rose Genele
Yes. I think that we know historically that tech has been largely male dominated, you know, not a lot of diversity in in many other respects. Certainly race, sexual orientation, disability, every category we can think about when we're when we're looking at DEI. And so it's especially important because of the lack of representation that we see in tech. I think a couple years ago, we might have said that it might be a pipeline problem, or you know, there's there's a lack of, of talent, but we now know that is not true. That's really just an excuse. And so I'm focused on tech, because that's my that's the industry that I work in, but also because I think there's a lot of room for growth.
Matt
So I had the last actually, I of course, I'm revealing that I don't remember the sequencing of my own podcast, but I think my last two guests were both women from startup lives or in one on the fund side, one on the entrepreneurial side, one of the founder side, telling stories about the various flavors of awful difficulties that that founders face in general. And my last guest, Soodeh Farokhi, telling the story of her coming to Canada following some money to get her pretty cool tech company started and then finding herself, as many founders would be, vulnerable to bad advice from from a funder. That, I suspect, is you know that vulnerability is multiplied by the fact that she's a woman and a woman of color and non-Canadian, and even that she has an accent and and and, and, and. Maybe I don't want to put you on the spot. But maybe I'll just pause and get you to react for a second we can go down this this sort of path of the tech space and founders and women and people of color and so on and so on. And their vulnerability.
Rose Genele
Yeah, For sure. I think it's something that people maybe know in passing or are aware of, but don't truly understand the impact of moving through the world as you are. Being at a disadvantage in so many ways. It's really challenging, and I think it's, it's certainly very easy to maybe think about it one day, or to be aware of it in a conversation or after a presentation, but then you go on about your life and you don't really think about it. But for the people who are, who are immigrants, who are women, who are of color, it's an everyday reality. And so sometimes when people say, I'm tired of hearing about this, or oh, you know, we've been talking about this forever, and it's like, we have not found a better solution. And we're still facing this discrimination, this unfairness, and sometimes this suffering. Daily. So it's not surprising to me, and it's saddening, but yes to to be afforded resources, or to be given, to have the carrot put out in front of you. And then just as you have it within your reach, you are not able to truly make use of it. It's disappointing. And I want to take this opportunity to say there is still so much funding in tech, going to people that are not women, people that are not of color, people that are not disabled, people that are not Indigenous, and the numbers reflect it. And I want us to do something about it. It's not acceptable. We need to create more space for trans people. We need to amplify their voices. And we need to create and build with trans people, you know, not just in mind, but as part of the actual building and informing what we're doing. I think it's so important to advocate for trans people. And I want to get better at you know, making sure it it's incorporated in all things that I do, but I think it's very important to raise that.
Matt
Yeah, if we, just to... and I don't need the last word on this, obviously. But thinking about some of the themes that we've already reflected on a lot of this has to do with the vulnerability of people who are, well, basically anything like me anything other than like me. The vulnerability of people, and their this vulnerability, extending to the fact that they won't have access to capital, they won't have access to talent, they won't have access to community or resources in this sort of tech startup space.
Rose Genele
Yes, yes.
Matt
And the more marginalized you get, the more vulnerable you become to being starved of all of this stuff. And I suspect there's virtually nobody more marginalized than trans people.
Rose Genele
Yes, and especially, you know, trans people of color, trans people of color who are disabled, you know, you when you layer on those intersectionalities, you start to understand, we need to focus on the least of us to benefit the rest of us, you know?
Matt Voiceover
These are all critical messages when it comes to economic empowerment in general and Rose is starting to touch here on something really important to explore a bit more, especially for people like me: white, hetero, able bodied dudes with secure economic status, etc. Namely, it can feel super overwhelming to think of inclusion and equity at the system level. And imagine a role we might play in improving anything. It's just too big. And I like that her Summit focuses on you, as a leader, by positioning it at the level of an organization and individual, something more tangible emerges.
Rose Genele
Yes, I think that when we're looking at an organization, of course, it exists within our society. And so there's those systemic things that we have to tend with. The reason why I'm such a big fan of inclusive leadership is because it's this idea that leaders really influence and impact an organization and the culture and the environment. And so if we can focus on the leaders, that is a step in the right direction, and helps us contend with the pieces that we can't so readily change, such as those systemic barriers, right? And that's why it's all the more important that we understand what inclusive leadership is, we tap into it, and we really make an effort to lead in an inclusive way. We can really only control ourselves as human beings and so I think that's why it's so important not just for leaders but for every person to take the time to, you know, look inward and think about what does inclusion mean to them? You know, what does it mean for their leadership style? What does it mean for their team members, people that they work with? What does it mean for their their lives, their family outside of work? You know, what does it mean when you're at the dinner table and somebody says something inappropriate? What does it mean then? When it's not easy?
Matt
Yeah, okay. I love it and I love it for a lot of reasons. Not the least of which is the fact that this it makes it... it empowers a person to do something useful. It's saying, no, look, you got stuff you can do. If you're interested in doing something here as a leader. You don't you you are empowered to be important. In the solution of not the system level problem, but In doing something useful in your own organization and your life and your family, and your community, and so on. So, let's, let's dive into inclusion. I have a perspective of what it means and feels like to me and which I'm not, I will gladly share. But I'd love to, why don't you start us off? Because you've got inclusion in the title of your event? What does it mean? Or how do we, whether if it's if it's unfair to ask for a definition, tell me what it feels like, or what's missing? Or whatever it is?
Rose Genele
For sure. I like this question. Because inclusion is so important. I do think that we need more than just inclusion, I do think that we need the D, E, and I and the B and the J and all that right? And so inclusion by virtue of the word itself, is to include that diverse representation, people with various backgrounds, various characteristics, they're a part of what is happening, they're being pulled in, they're being invited to the dance, so to speak, right? Like people like to say. You know, it can't stop there. To be included, like, oh, you know, "Rose, this thing is happening, and you can come, like you're allowed to show up." That's fine. But it would be even better would be, "Hey, Rose, we're thinking of doing this thing. What are your thoughts? What would make this great for you? Or how can we make sure that it's going to be fun for you, or that you can attend or your team or these group of people, and we are creating this together?"
Matt
Okay, so this, I think you've illustrated something that I this is one of the things that I find so important, in my understanding of inclusion is, to pick up your metaphor. so if we if there's a dance, and the people putting on the dance, are really interested in inclusion, and they approach Rose, and they approach Matt, and they want to know what does it take to help you show up and feel like you belong? And what you want and what I want are opposite from each other. I think some people - because that's a real thing. Nobody, nobody gets optimized by exactly the same stuff or gets excited by exactly the same stuff - I think that's one of the challenges that makes leaders look at this and say, "inclusion is impossible." I don't I don't believe that inclusion is impossible, but I think they'll look at it and say everyone's their own idiosyncratic person, how can I be inclusive of all of it? I again, I'm happy to share my my perspective in a second. But what what's your response?
Rose Genele
Yeah, I think that sounds like an excuse. And it sounds a little lazy. In my opinion, I think that by human nature, and the way that we exist is we look for patterns. Humans like to look for patterns and recognize patterns. And so when people are telling you or giving you information about their preferences, or otherwise, that's really data. And I'm a data driven person. And so you need to sort that data. You need to organize it, and you need to find a pattern or find the patterns. And that's how you can lean into using that information to find a consensus for everybody. Putting something together that's going to work for many different types of people. That's the nicest way I can, I can put that together.
Matt
Okay, I might be a little snarkier. So I think that a lot of the time when I meet leaders that are interested in doing inclusion, and they run into this problem of oh, shoot, you know, they've got this huge variance of what people are going to feel comfortable with, the first instinct is to find a compromise. What's the one solution I can come up with and apply across the board that ultimately just makes everybody equally unhappy, I guess? And I think this is an area where compromise is not appropriate. I think, if we have variance, and we've got people across the if we have a spectrum or continuum of what people want, and there's no agreement whatsoever, or no perfect agreement, why aren't we trying to sometimes give each of these people the thing that they need? And say to him, look, we know you hate..."Rose, we know you hate what Matt wants, and Matt, we know you hate what Rose wants, you're both gonna get a chance to shine at some point. And you're both gonna have to kind of put up with each other's nonsense a little bit, but don't worry, we care about you." I mean, I'm exaggerating for the sake of making a point a little bit, but I think the default is looking for a compromise, and then we end up kind of equally excluding everybody. Right. Does that map onto your experience to?
Rose Genele
Yes, yeah, that that does make sense. And I think we people might default to that because it seems like an easier solution. And so I That might even suggest that when we go into doing some of this work, we need to be aware that it's not necessarily going to be easy. And we got to be okay with that and prepared mentally. And so, you know, once we face the first not easy, you know, situation, we're not looking for an immediate compromise, right?
Matt
Yeah. Yeah, I think that there's maybe a false sense of, "you know, what? There's gotta be some one set of conditions where everybody's gonna feel included." But it's, it's just not real. Right? It can't be done. So let's, let me put you on the spot and ask you like if I'm, if I'm, I've heard about your event and all of it sounds really interesting to me. What is inclusive leadership, right? Beyond being an inclusive, like a leader who cares about inclusion? What is it? Can you describe what are some of the characteristics that if I walk into the room, I want to be an inclusive leader, what does that mean? Like, how do you empower me to be that?
Rose Genele
Inclusive leadership, it actually means taking time to know and to learn about the people that you're working with, so that you can, you can better meet their needs, you can better support them individually. In work instances, we group and organize people for the purposes of, you know, carrying out the work. So we have teams, departments. But as a leader, it's really important for us to also spend time and focus on the individual. Supporting them in ways that are best for that individual. Being empathetic as a leader is really important. Cultural awareness is very important as an inclusive leader. Creating that psychological safety and creating that environment and that sense of belonging. That's really important, because that's how each individual is going to have the space that they need to do their greatest work, and to be as vulnerable as they can, which is important, again, for that creativity for that team building for that innovation.
Matt
I'm bringing this up because I've I've encountered this type of challenge before and I find it lazy like some of the other ones. But I do also find it a little bit more complex to manage. Which is this sense that if I'm in a psychologically safe environment, that must mean that I always feel good and safe and comfortable, like there's no space for discomfort. The moment I feel discomfort, that means that this is not a psychologically safe environment. And I don't believe that's true.
Rose Genele
I don't either.
Matt
OK, so tell me more.
Rose Genele
Yeah. Psychological safety is, you know, it's not a one place in time, you know. It's if something bad happens, or you feel discomfort, being able to feel that discomfort means you're in a safe place. I think if you can sit in that discomfort, you can acknowledge and recognize that discomfort, then you may actually be in a space where you're... where there is that psychological safety, because you you have the freedom to feel that feeling. If you're in a space that's not psychologically safe, you may not even have the ability to feel discomfort. Maybe you're just immediately, you know, afraid, or you immediately shut down, or you're completely in panic. I think discomfort is an emotion, but it's not a bad emotion. As humans and as people, we owe it to ourselves to let us experience the full range of emotions in life. So that discomfort is part of your learning and growing as a human. And if you're feeling that discomfort at work, I would like to posit that it may be a good thing. It could be a good thing.
Matt
Yeah, I really like what you're describing. It, it makes me think of, because my my work and a lot of my life is spent in boardrooms with boards, which is, you know, there's so many conventions, so much sticky status quo in that space. That originated kind of nowhere, right? It was not an intentional thing where we said, hey, let's design a board room in this way that is very conducive to anything in particular, just a bunch of conventions that built on each other and perpetuated forever, for no reason. And what we end up with, just as an example of what you're talking about, is we end up with this sense that well, you don't belong if you're not really willing to challenge people within this environment or if you're not really willing to speak up on your own. There's no sort of mutual ownership of saying, "You know what? Rose hasn't really been saying much lately. What can we do to find out what's going on and give her some space to feel good about participating, right?" That just doesn't happen in these environments. And I suspect in the tech world, there's a bit of a system level thing going on there too, where there's kind of a an industry level culture that works really well for some people, and really doesn't work well for a lot of other people and is sticky. So first of all, is that fair? And second of all, what are, could you maybe describe the characteristics of that vibe and and how it impacts people?
Rose Genele
Yeah, I totally agree that there is kind of that convention. And, you know, while it does work for some, I'm not sure who! I'm you know, I'm not sure who it's really working for. I think, like I mentioned before, it's the tech world is largely still very male dominated, very white male dominated, you know, cisgender, hetero, you know, all those things. And if I think about it, it makes sense in terms of our world and other industries and historically where most power has has, you know, been and where it's held. I would obviously like to see that change. I don't think that it's really even serving the people who it was created by or, you know, the folks who have codified this type of way of being I don't think it's even benefiting them. It's not. So we've done this for a while, and it hasn't been working. So when are we going to change? Like, when are we going to try something new, I think the time is now. Hence, the Summit.
Matt Voiceover
I imagined myself in the position of an early stage entrepreneur and potentially wondering, "I'm 1,000% on board with putting inclusion near the top of my priority list, except all I care about right now is survival." I asked Rose if she has any advice for the founders, especially in the tech space, who want to be inclusive leaders, but feel too much of a burden from the day to day stress of the startup life.
Rose Genele
I work with founders. So I'll say one of the most important things for a founder to focus on is 1) not run out of money. And 2) is to build a team. To build a great team. To take the vision forward, you need to be able to articulate and communicate the vision get people excited and fired up. And so when you think about those two things that are extremely critical for your success: not running out of money and building a great team. Building that team is arguably one of the hardest things to do. You have to find the right people, you have to keep them motivated, you have to keep them driving towards a goal. And so that is really where thinking about your leadership style and thinking about inclusive leadership really comes into play and starts to be an advantage for you. If you can start thinking about that early, before you've even begun to build your team or at the time where you're starting to build your team. You can make better decisions, more informed decisions about who you're bringing on, knowing that you are trying to create a culture of you know, inclusion, psychological safety and belonging. Because you know that it leads to high performing teams that then provide the best business outcomes. And so if you're thinking about the long game, which you need to be thinking about, it's a little bit a little bit of an investment, a little bit of investment, you know, upfront that will serve you so well the whole way through.
Matt Voiceover
Honestly, Rose's message here couldn't resonate with me more. Raising money, keeping control, early stage growth, it's all easier with an amazing team. And inclusion is the special sauce that activates an amazing team's superpowers and makes the whole greater than the sum of its parts. Anyway, it's never my intention to use Sound-Up Governance to promote anything other than interesting and inspiring perspectives. Whether you're interested in the New Face of Inclusion Summit or not, you do you. But please take Rose's messages to heart. If you are or might be a leader in any kind of organization, you can be the key to inclusion and inclusion can be the key to success. As always my inbox at soundup@groundupgovernance.com is open for compliments, complaints, rants, recommendations, and thank you notes. In the meantime, thanks for tuning in.
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